Do you truly want to be a SOLDIER for Christ?
Please bear with me,
I know this can be a touchy subject, BUT was meant to gently discuss a differing subject among believers. We must keep in mind, only one way can be correct. I have personally believed (and been taught) one way for most of my life, until now...
There is definitely a difference of opinion here, which can only be faithfully cleared up with scripture. Unless you believe in predestination (or fate) you must believe in freewill. If you don't believe we have freewill then this conversation may be a waste. Thanks for stopping by (unless it's preordained that you stay, in that case welcome back!)
If you do believe in freewill then you know even God does not impose Himself upon you. You CHOOSE to be saved, He doesn't force you. Just like demons cannot force you to take them (or be influenced) but WE must leave a door open.
God still knows the beginning from the end, He's awesome like that.
So once I am saved does my freewill vanish? Am I always saved from then on, no matter what, or can I CHOOSE to fall away? The true answer to this is actually a big deal, so stick this out. there is a deeper implication going on here, and needs to be addressed.
What does Scripture say?
"But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die." Genesis 3:4 Here we find the first lie and the first sin recorded in the Bible. Notice satan is telling her she won't die if she disobeys God, and commits sin. So did they die? (yes) Was it physical or spiritual death? (they continued to live, but spiritually severed from God) That is what "sin" is, seperation from a thrice holy God. In the next breath satan lies again:
"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Gen. 3:5 To be "as gods" is evolving from being man to something more. It is here first that the idea of evolution was injected. It is sad to see how this lie has blossomed into the deception it is today; even having taken many Christians along its dark path. Not unlike the current day manifestation of this lie, the very verse before it sheds much light on where the "permanent salvation" deception stems from as well. The idea that we will not die (spiritually) if we sin against the Lord without continued repentance. We also find that satan doesn't have any new tricks, just the same old lies carried out in different ways. We dare not underestimate the power of the lie. Satan uses it first, 2 times in a row, right from the beginning! And the deceptions that take place in each of our lives today is astounding. Like it or not, we are being lied to all the time from every angle. There is but ONE truth we can rely upon, one truth consistent since before time. It is the blessed and eternal Word of God Almighty. It is there we get the perfect mirror to the soul, and it is there we put our trust to deliver us from the deceptions of the devil.
Paul speaking to the Corinthians:
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11
So what and WHY would there be a deception with the "OSAS" (once saved always saved) doctrine?
(this is a MUST ASK question. Since we know there are 2 opposing doctrines, only 1 can be true. That does not mean there is always an answer given in Scripture. But one thing the Bible certainly DOES teach us is that IT is consistent.
Considering the "golden thread" alone, we begin to see the big picture and the themes God has so amazingly wove into the fabric of Scripture. Beginning to end...All for our revelation! The "permanent salvation" doctrine is not found anywhere in scripture. Some very awesome and mighty promises ARE made of our salvation (such as: John 10:27-29) But none that assert that we cannot willfully fall from grace. On the contrary, there are many, such as Gen 3, that show we can. And many more that specifically confirm this reality.
But why would satan want us to think we are always saved no matter what? What does it benefit him?
Maybe the biggest fruit we see is recidivism within the spiritual life. When people become "saved" thinking they are eternally secure despite their current unrighteousness, what motivation does a new believer have to "sin no more". And for those who do press on, what seed does that plant in the new believer's mind? Does it give license to abuse grace? According to Peter, we are to live "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."2 Peter 2:16,
(so do people use it for a "cloak of maliciousness"? Is it on purpose or do they think they were saved once eternally?)
Many argue that those who abuse God's grace and forgiveness, or fall back into a sinful life may have never been saved to begin with. But then, what message were they supposed to get by assuring their eternity only in their mind?
It says above, "some use it as a cloak"
Not everyone is on your level of relationship with Christ, and not everyone see's the need to walk with God in "Spirit and in Truth." (John 4:24) At least not in the beginning. And therein lies the dilemma. For many use eternal salvation as a license to live as they please. Whether they are actually "saved" or not, the new believer (or old) has been given a false sense of security while yet living in a state of sin. Lord knows all our sins are forgiven, but "..sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1 Jon 3:9
OSAS people may never have even stopped their current sinful lives by thinking that "sinner's prayer" they said was their ticket once and for all. But what does it mean to walk with God?
The Purpose of the Parable of the sower (Luke 8:9-15)
9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
In verse 13 we clearly see they did believe, and for a while even, but then "fell away".
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36 Clearly lost salvation
It is each of our own choices what soil our hearts are. Rocky? Thorny? Or fertile and ready to receive God's Word?
What does Jesus say about NOT bearing fruit?
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matt 7:19
and:
"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt 3:12
John 15
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. ("purging" is God chastening us and purifying us through tribulation)
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (3 times Jesus says "abide"!! What does "abide" mean? It means to 'faithfully remain' IN JESUS.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (He's the vine! And we are what? He says "abide" here again. We must remain in Jesus. But this also clearly infers that we cannot be abiding in Him. He strongly warns us against it!)
6 If a man abide NOT in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If we are "in Him" as branches, and we are "cut off" for not bearing fruit, are we still in Him? (no!) Were we in Him? (yes!)
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinth 5:17 If you are not "in Christ" you are not a "new creature" and the OLD MAN is back. Point is, being "cut off" from the life-giving vine of Christ through fruitless disobedience always leads to death.
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romas 11.
I'm not sure how these can be refuted. Your either spared or not. Where will your heart be found on that day?
Never forget, "God gives grace to the humble" Here God is showing the conceit of one who thinks they can't be broken off.
And with such a great gift as eternal life, how can we be so high minded to think it's permanent even for those in sin? But rather, God is holy. That is why He calls us to be holy: 1 Peter 1:16 Sin separates us from God, Faith in Lord Jesus' and His cleansing blood brings us back to God. Which is precisely why we must pray and repent daily! Even hourly if need be...
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9
So what if we do not confess? What if we die deep in sin? Remember, God sees the heart on all matters.
And He sees that: "All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall," 1 Peter 1:24
And remember:
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Acts 10:34
Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. James 4:14
We see that very same theme throughout the Scriptures, Here just as in the parable of the sower:
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.
(Galatians 6:8-10) Our hearts are where we sow from. The soil of our soul is as we've allowed it to become.
I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense – Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. – 1 John 2:1
Present tense, "speaks" to the Father. Not spoke to Him, once and for all. That means we must constantly speak to the Lord, and ask forgiveness as needed. God would not have us be unsure of our salvation, yet we must fear Him and fear the consequences behind any separation we cause from sin. But we will still be confident!
And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.(1 John 2:3)
Not if we "got saved" when we are 13, or 92 years old! Actually being saved is walking with God and keeping His commands. Otherwise we're just making empty promises. and giving ourselves false hope.
"Whoever says “I know Him” but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,(1 John 2:4)
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. Heb 3:13 What if we become hardened and perish?
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. 1 Timothy 6:10
I can't stress this enough, how can you wander from something you never had? And are we not saved by grace through faith?
This one is very straight forward:
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3
Now is repentance a one time thing? Do born again Christians need to repent? So what happens to those who do not repent?
I believe this is a very clear verse:
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Ezekiel 18:24
Is this spiritual death or physical? Clearly it is spiritual. And what does bible say about our righteousness?
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinth 5:21
Because "our righteousness is as filthy rags" Isaiah 64:6
So if I "turn away" from the righteousness I have in Jesus, in my sin I will die. Even though I was "in Him" and saved befo
That's why Jesus says to endure to the end!
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved. Mat 10:22"
Who will be saved?....How far must he endure? Not him who gets saved and makes it 90% of the way?
Are we getting a "permanent salvation" kind of feeling yet?
Here is another clear verse:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5
"Brethren" is always in reference to Christians, who seem to be able to "err from the truth" to the point of spiritual death. Yet can be converted back with help from a brother/sister.
12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love Him." (Can this blatant condition be refuted?)
THEN….
14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
James 1:12--16
Why would James warn to his "beloved brothers" (Christians) about sin bringing forth "spiritual death" by telling them "not be deceived" after just saying that you must withstand "the test" because "sin brings forth death"??? What about the OSAS?
Do not be deceived! (he says this because many will be deceived!)
Symbolic of His return?
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. Luke 12:46
"with the unbelievers"? So this person was a believer then.
The prodigal son. Was he a son? One of his father? Did he have life? YES! But he killed his spiritual life for a time:
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
Luke 15:24 (was he dead physically? Did someone resurrect him from the pigpen physically? No, he was dead spiritually but found.)
This one is very obvious, I don't think God was hiding the answer from us:
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19"
If your name is "taken away" then it was at one point present. So can you lose salvation? Or if this is a "different book" than "the Lamb's book" does that mean Christians can add/take away words from Revelation and still be ok?
(this verse has been translated "tree of life" as well)
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1
Self explanatory. Bondage is not being free in Christ. Sin! And when sins grows it becomes death.
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4"
If we are "SAVED by grace through faith" and we "fall from grace" then are we saved? No, the condition for salvation is through faith by grace. Fall from grace and you fall from salvation.
Hebrews 2:1-4
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard,
lest at any time we should let them slip.
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience
received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; (?)
If you continue reading it talks about man being "a little lower than the angels"
Do not forget, satan and 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven and are destined for the lake of fire.
And they were in God's presence and messed it up! What does that speak to our position?
Paul says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12
Many will say we are saved by grace through faith and not of "works"
And AMEN! it's not by anything we did! We must simply believe the cross and choose Him everyday.
But it also says, "faith without works is dead" James 2:17
So what does "dead" mean? So If I WAS "saved through my faith" but now it has become death, am I saved? But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18
We don't get to heaven by works! But by faith! Yet we have works because our faith is real.
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:5"
So if I don't overcome what happens to my name in the book of life? Certainly implies there WILL be some blotting going on.
Will everyone who starts the race overcome to be clothed in salvation?
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1 Peter 4:18,19"
So "scarcely saved" and the other, bigger one, "commit the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing" What happens to my soul if I don't commit to well doing? And what a good verse to keep us committed! Amen?
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:12" We see here that unbelief can grow if a Christian does not guard their heart by obeying His commands, and "depart from God" To depart means I had to be there in the first place.
He carries on in verse 14: "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
That's a big IF, He says..."IF we hold to our confidence" UNTO THE END (that means you can be 100% Christian 99% of your life, and if at the end you forsake your calling it's curtains. God wants serious people that live truly for Him. Soldiers.
And here a passage which God comes right out and says it:
Hebrews 6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
This verse is highly debated over this very subject, but taken with the many other passages I believe it is safe to say there are extreme times where one can walk away from the faith and never be saved again. If you look at the evil in the world today, that rings so very true. Notice how this leaves no room for debate? And in the chapter right before this, we are sure what the topic is: And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Heb 5:9
It's not just saying the sinners prayer that does it?
Here is a very clear and concise reference to lost salvation.
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" 1 Tim 4:1
Everyone knows "For by grace you have been saved through faith" so if one "departs from the faith" then are they still saved? How can one be if they depart from the faith?
Open and shut case yet again. Trust Scripture alone, it does not contradict.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” 2 Peter 2
"knowledge" from the greek "gnosis" is "to know"
If knowing Jesus is not salvation (not knowing of Him) then I don't know what is!
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Heb 12:16-17
Here we see a parallel and possible inference to grace and salvation. One thing we can surely get from this is that someone had a blessing but gave it up. Hebrews and Galatians is highly recommended for insight to this very matter.
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. Galations 5
God "calls" us according to His purpose. Rom 8:28 We then become "Christian brethren" we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord. (see Biblical definition of "brethren" http://access-jesus.com/brethren-and-the-bible.html) So if a real Christian turns their freedom into an opportunity for the flesh what becomes of them? Live by flesh die by flesh.
More old testament verses?
Yet now, if you will forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray you, out of your book which you have written. Exodus 32:32
What book? Well it has to do with unforgiven sin getting you blotted out. Since we know unforgiven sin leads to spiritual death, could this "book" just be for those who were ever born? Or does this book have eternal ramifications?
People argue there are 2 different books (Book of life and Book of Lamb), but they soon forget that the same Jesus who gave John the Revelation also gave Moses the tablets. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever! Heb 13:8
If there are 2 "books of life" then what does Rev 3:5 mean?
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
That is salvation! What point would there be to mention "blotting out" of a non-believer when speaking directly about salvation? And why differentiate between the 2 to begin with? Your either in or out.
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Rev 3:15,16
So this was wrote to the church, believers, does "spit out" infer permanent salvation?
But what about this verse:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. John 10:27-29
Doesn't this mean I am always saved?
"No, Jesus did not mean that we cannot fall away. We have our agency. (freewill) We can always, always, choose to stop following or be taken away by our sin, getting away from Jesus. What it does means is that if we are faithful, and if we continue to follow Jesus in faith, with an unwavering desire to do what is pleasing to Him, then another person/demon/force can not make us to abandon Jesus and no longer have the promise of salvation. But all it takes is to stop listening to Jesus and stop following Him, and then we are not snatched away, but willfully falling away."
We see that phrase, "fall away" often in these verses. I think the message is clear.
(this answer can be found@http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110502060828AAm6KXP
The same goes for Romans 8:38-39 "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."These are both external assertions. Neither one accounts for the believer's movements in an out of grace, and only you and God know where you stand. This verse does however serve a powerful purpose, because it shows how much YOU have the power to mess this up YET how impossible it is that you can be taken. God wants you and protects you. He longs for you to be sanctified and obedient, that you may walk with Him. He never changes, He never moves, it is us who get off track. He can bring us back but only if we listen.
Lastly, we can see why satan wants Christians thinking they can't lose salvation. We'd have a world full of lazy believers (sound familiar?) And we wonder why the church is failing the world in so many ways (abortion, gay marriage, prayer in schools, etc, etc)
Many people are complacent and falsely assured of their eternity. And maybe some still have it, we cannot speak to God's individual plan for one's life, but the Christian who knows how "scarcely" they have been saved, "by such a great salvation" must not neglect it nor turn from it! Knowing this life is a daily/hourly/momentary WALK with God, one cannot grow with a "once saved always saved" seed planted within their heart.
Knowing if we stay in God's will, repenting our sins as needed that nothing will snatch us from Him is our mighty and perfect promise. "If you love Me, you will keep My commands. John 14:15
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matt 5:15-16
I hope this was a blessing,
There is no time to lose!
I know this can be a touchy subject, BUT was meant to gently discuss a differing subject among believers. We must keep in mind, only one way can be correct. I have personally believed (and been taught) one way for most of my life, until now...
There is definitely a difference of opinion here, which can only be faithfully cleared up with scripture. Unless you believe in predestination (or fate) you must believe in freewill. If you don't believe we have freewill then this conversation may be a waste. Thanks for stopping by (unless it's preordained that you stay, in that case welcome back!)
If you do believe in freewill then you know even God does not impose Himself upon you. You CHOOSE to be saved, He doesn't force you. Just like demons cannot force you to take them (or be influenced) but WE must leave a door open.
God still knows the beginning from the end, He's awesome like that.
So once I am saved does my freewill vanish? Am I always saved from then on, no matter what, or can I CHOOSE to fall away? The true answer to this is actually a big deal, so stick this out. there is a deeper implication going on here, and needs to be addressed.
What does Scripture say?
"But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die." Genesis 3:4 Here we find the first lie and the first sin recorded in the Bible. Notice satan is telling her she won't die if she disobeys God, and commits sin. So did they die? (yes) Was it physical or spiritual death? (they continued to live, but spiritually severed from God) That is what "sin" is, seperation from a thrice holy God. In the next breath satan lies again:
"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Gen. 3:5 To be "as gods" is evolving from being man to something more. It is here first that the idea of evolution was injected. It is sad to see how this lie has blossomed into the deception it is today; even having taken many Christians along its dark path. Not unlike the current day manifestation of this lie, the very verse before it sheds much light on where the "permanent salvation" deception stems from as well. The idea that we will not die (spiritually) if we sin against the Lord without continued repentance. We also find that satan doesn't have any new tricks, just the same old lies carried out in different ways. We dare not underestimate the power of the lie. Satan uses it first, 2 times in a row, right from the beginning! And the deceptions that take place in each of our lives today is astounding. Like it or not, we are being lied to all the time from every angle. There is but ONE truth we can rely upon, one truth consistent since before time. It is the blessed and eternal Word of God Almighty. It is there we get the perfect mirror to the soul, and it is there we put our trust to deliver us from the deceptions of the devil.
Paul speaking to the Corinthians:
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11
So what and WHY would there be a deception with the "OSAS" (once saved always saved) doctrine?
(this is a MUST ASK question. Since we know there are 2 opposing doctrines, only 1 can be true. That does not mean there is always an answer given in Scripture. But one thing the Bible certainly DOES teach us is that IT is consistent.
Considering the "golden thread" alone, we begin to see the big picture and the themes God has so amazingly wove into the fabric of Scripture. Beginning to end...All for our revelation! The "permanent salvation" doctrine is not found anywhere in scripture. Some very awesome and mighty promises ARE made of our salvation (such as: John 10:27-29) But none that assert that we cannot willfully fall from grace. On the contrary, there are many, such as Gen 3, that show we can. And many more that specifically confirm this reality.
But why would satan want us to think we are always saved no matter what? What does it benefit him?
Maybe the biggest fruit we see is recidivism within the spiritual life. When people become "saved" thinking they are eternally secure despite their current unrighteousness, what motivation does a new believer have to "sin no more". And for those who do press on, what seed does that plant in the new believer's mind? Does it give license to abuse grace? According to Peter, we are to live "As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."2 Peter 2:16,
(so do people use it for a "cloak of maliciousness"? Is it on purpose or do they think they were saved once eternally?)
Many argue that those who abuse God's grace and forgiveness, or fall back into a sinful life may have never been saved to begin with. But then, what message were they supposed to get by assuring their eternity only in their mind?
It says above, "some use it as a cloak"
Not everyone is on your level of relationship with Christ, and not everyone see's the need to walk with God in "Spirit and in Truth." (John 4:24) At least not in the beginning. And therein lies the dilemma. For many use eternal salvation as a license to live as they please. Whether they are actually "saved" or not, the new believer (or old) has been given a false sense of security while yet living in a state of sin. Lord knows all our sins are forgiven, but "..sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1 Jon 3:9
OSAS people may never have even stopped their current sinful lives by thinking that "sinner's prayer" they said was their ticket once and for all. But what does it mean to walk with God?
The Purpose of the Parable of the sower (Luke 8:9-15)
9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
In verse 13 we clearly see they did believe, and for a while even, but then "fell away".
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36 Clearly lost salvation
It is each of our own choices what soil our hearts are. Rocky? Thorny? Or fertile and ready to receive God's Word?
What does Jesus say about NOT bearing fruit?
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matt 7:19
and:
"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt 3:12
John 15
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. ("purging" is God chastening us and purifying us through tribulation)
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (3 times Jesus says "abide"!! What does "abide" mean? It means to 'faithfully remain' IN JESUS.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (He's the vine! And we are what? He says "abide" here again. We must remain in Jesus. But this also clearly infers that we cannot be abiding in Him. He strongly warns us against it!)
6 If a man abide NOT in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If we are "in Him" as branches, and we are "cut off" for not bearing fruit, are we still in Him? (no!) Were we in Him? (yes!)
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinth 5:17 If you are not "in Christ" you are not a "new creature" and the OLD MAN is back. Point is, being "cut off" from the life-giving vine of Christ through fruitless disobedience always leads to death.
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romas 11.
I'm not sure how these can be refuted. Your either spared or not. Where will your heart be found on that day?
Never forget, "God gives grace to the humble" Here God is showing the conceit of one who thinks they can't be broken off.
And with such a great gift as eternal life, how can we be so high minded to think it's permanent even for those in sin? But rather, God is holy. That is why He calls us to be holy: 1 Peter 1:16 Sin separates us from God, Faith in Lord Jesus' and His cleansing blood brings us back to God. Which is precisely why we must pray and repent daily! Even hourly if need be...
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9
So what if we do not confess? What if we die deep in sin? Remember, God sees the heart on all matters.
And He sees that: "All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall," 1 Peter 1:24
And remember:
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Acts 10:34
Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. James 4:14
We see that very same theme throughout the Scriptures, Here just as in the parable of the sower:
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.
(Galatians 6:8-10) Our hearts are where we sow from. The soil of our soul is as we've allowed it to become.
I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense – Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. – 1 John 2:1
Present tense, "speaks" to the Father. Not spoke to Him, once and for all. That means we must constantly speak to the Lord, and ask forgiveness as needed. God would not have us be unsure of our salvation, yet we must fear Him and fear the consequences behind any separation we cause from sin. But we will still be confident!
And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.(1 John 2:3)
Not if we "got saved" when we are 13, or 92 years old! Actually being saved is walking with God and keeping His commands. Otherwise we're just making empty promises. and giving ourselves false hope.
"Whoever says “I know Him” but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,(1 John 2:4)
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. Heb 3:13 What if we become hardened and perish?
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. 1 Timothy 6:10
I can't stress this enough, how can you wander from something you never had? And are we not saved by grace through faith?
This one is very straight forward:
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3
Now is repentance a one time thing? Do born again Christians need to repent? So what happens to those who do not repent?
I believe this is a very clear verse:
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Ezekiel 18:24
Is this spiritual death or physical? Clearly it is spiritual. And what does bible say about our righteousness?
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinth 5:21
Because "our righteousness is as filthy rags" Isaiah 64:6
So if I "turn away" from the righteousness I have in Jesus, in my sin I will die. Even though I was "in Him" and saved befo
That's why Jesus says to endure to the end!
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved. Mat 10:22"
Who will be saved?....How far must he endure? Not him who gets saved and makes it 90% of the way?
Are we getting a "permanent salvation" kind of feeling yet?
Here is another clear verse:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5
"Brethren" is always in reference to Christians, who seem to be able to "err from the truth" to the point of spiritual death. Yet can be converted back with help from a brother/sister.
12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love Him." (Can this blatant condition be refuted?)
THEN….
14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
James 1:12--16
Why would James warn to his "beloved brothers" (Christians) about sin bringing forth "spiritual death" by telling them "not be deceived" after just saying that you must withstand "the test" because "sin brings forth death"??? What about the OSAS?
Do not be deceived! (he says this because many will be deceived!)
Symbolic of His return?
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. Luke 12:46
"with the unbelievers"? So this person was a believer then.
The prodigal son. Was he a son? One of his father? Did he have life? YES! But he killed his spiritual life for a time:
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
Luke 15:24 (was he dead physically? Did someone resurrect him from the pigpen physically? No, he was dead spiritually but found.)
This one is very obvious, I don't think God was hiding the answer from us:
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19"
If your name is "taken away" then it was at one point present. So can you lose salvation? Or if this is a "different book" than "the Lamb's book" does that mean Christians can add/take away words from Revelation and still be ok?
(this verse has been translated "tree of life" as well)
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1
Self explanatory. Bondage is not being free in Christ. Sin! And when sins grows it becomes death.
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4"
If we are "SAVED by grace through faith" and we "fall from grace" then are we saved? No, the condition for salvation is through faith by grace. Fall from grace and you fall from salvation.
Hebrews 2:1-4
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard,
lest at any time we should let them slip.
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience
received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; (?)
If you continue reading it talks about man being "a little lower than the angels"
Do not forget, satan and 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven and are destined for the lake of fire.
And they were in God's presence and messed it up! What does that speak to our position?
Paul says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12
Many will say we are saved by grace through faith and not of "works"
And AMEN! it's not by anything we did! We must simply believe the cross and choose Him everyday.
But it also says, "faith without works is dead" James 2:17
So what does "dead" mean? So If I WAS "saved through my faith" but now it has become death, am I saved? But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18
We don't get to heaven by works! But by faith! Yet we have works because our faith is real.
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:5"
So if I don't overcome what happens to my name in the book of life? Certainly implies there WILL be some blotting going on.
Will everyone who starts the race overcome to be clothed in salvation?
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1 Peter 4:18,19"
So "scarcely saved" and the other, bigger one, "commit the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing" What happens to my soul if I don't commit to well doing? And what a good verse to keep us committed! Amen?
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:12" We see here that unbelief can grow if a Christian does not guard their heart by obeying His commands, and "depart from God" To depart means I had to be there in the first place.
He carries on in verse 14: "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
That's a big IF, He says..."IF we hold to our confidence" UNTO THE END (that means you can be 100% Christian 99% of your life, and if at the end you forsake your calling it's curtains. God wants serious people that live truly for Him. Soldiers.
And here a passage which God comes right out and says it:
Hebrews 6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
This verse is highly debated over this very subject, but taken with the many other passages I believe it is safe to say there are extreme times where one can walk away from the faith and never be saved again. If you look at the evil in the world today, that rings so very true. Notice how this leaves no room for debate? And in the chapter right before this, we are sure what the topic is: And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Heb 5:9
It's not just saying the sinners prayer that does it?
Here is a very clear and concise reference to lost salvation.
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" 1 Tim 4:1
Everyone knows "For by grace you have been saved through faith" so if one "departs from the faith" then are they still saved? How can one be if they depart from the faith?
Open and shut case yet again. Trust Scripture alone, it does not contradict.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” 2 Peter 2
"knowledge" from the greek "gnosis" is "to know"
If knowing Jesus is not salvation (not knowing of Him) then I don't know what is!
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Heb 12:16-17
Here we see a parallel and possible inference to grace and salvation. One thing we can surely get from this is that someone had a blessing but gave it up. Hebrews and Galatians is highly recommended for insight to this very matter.
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. Galations 5
God "calls" us according to His purpose. Rom 8:28 We then become "Christian brethren" we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord. (see Biblical definition of "brethren" http://access-jesus.com/brethren-and-the-bible.html) So if a real Christian turns their freedom into an opportunity for the flesh what becomes of them? Live by flesh die by flesh.
More old testament verses?
Yet now, if you will forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray you, out of your book which you have written. Exodus 32:32
What book? Well it has to do with unforgiven sin getting you blotted out. Since we know unforgiven sin leads to spiritual death, could this "book" just be for those who were ever born? Or does this book have eternal ramifications?
People argue there are 2 different books (Book of life and Book of Lamb), but they soon forget that the same Jesus who gave John the Revelation also gave Moses the tablets. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever! Heb 13:8
If there are 2 "books of life" then what does Rev 3:5 mean?
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
That is salvation! What point would there be to mention "blotting out" of a non-believer when speaking directly about salvation? And why differentiate between the 2 to begin with? Your either in or out.
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Rev 3:15,16
So this was wrote to the church, believers, does "spit out" infer permanent salvation?
But what about this verse:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. John 10:27-29
Doesn't this mean I am always saved?
"No, Jesus did not mean that we cannot fall away. We have our agency. (freewill) We can always, always, choose to stop following or be taken away by our sin, getting away from Jesus. What it does means is that if we are faithful, and if we continue to follow Jesus in faith, with an unwavering desire to do what is pleasing to Him, then another person/demon/force can not make us to abandon Jesus and no longer have the promise of salvation. But all it takes is to stop listening to Jesus and stop following Him, and then we are not snatched away, but willfully falling away."
We see that phrase, "fall away" often in these verses. I think the message is clear.
(this answer can be found@http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110502060828AAm6KXP
The same goes for Romans 8:38-39 "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."These are both external assertions. Neither one accounts for the believer's movements in an out of grace, and only you and God know where you stand. This verse does however serve a powerful purpose, because it shows how much YOU have the power to mess this up YET how impossible it is that you can be taken. God wants you and protects you. He longs for you to be sanctified and obedient, that you may walk with Him. He never changes, He never moves, it is us who get off track. He can bring us back but only if we listen.
Lastly, we can see why satan wants Christians thinking they can't lose salvation. We'd have a world full of lazy believers (sound familiar?) And we wonder why the church is failing the world in so many ways (abortion, gay marriage, prayer in schools, etc, etc)
Many people are complacent and falsely assured of their eternity. And maybe some still have it, we cannot speak to God's individual plan for one's life, but the Christian who knows how "scarcely" they have been saved, "by such a great salvation" must not neglect it nor turn from it! Knowing this life is a daily/hourly/momentary WALK with God, one cannot grow with a "once saved always saved" seed planted within their heart.
Knowing if we stay in God's will, repenting our sins as needed that nothing will snatch us from Him is our mighty and perfect promise. "If you love Me, you will keep My commands. John 14:15
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matt 5:15-16
I hope this was a blessing,
There is no time to lose!
For the rest in the series:
http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/joe-schimmel-the-great-deception—once-saved-always-saved/
Or just watch it in full here: http://fr.cross.tv/37820
http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/joe-schimmel-the-great-deception—once-saved-always-saved/
Or just watch it in full here: http://fr.cross.tv/37820